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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 6, 2012 16:38:37 GMT -5
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Post by razmataz2003 on Dec 6, 2012 16:41:11 GMT -5
Oh thats cool. Not gonna get any work done for the rest of the day now... lol boss is gonna kill me
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Post by goarmy on Dec 6, 2012 16:50:03 GMT -5
Thanks Dmdm.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2012 16:57:34 GMT -5
This trial should lend value to Kodak Patents.
IMO.
SBG
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kott16
Junior Member
Posts: 242
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Post by kott16 on Dec 7, 2012 12:10:07 GMT -5
Summary from yesterday's Samsung vs Apple hearing is provided below. No orders were issued, but it appears that the amount of the damages from the jury was questionable. The judge seems to be leaning against an injunction against all the Samsung products that Apple claims were in violation of their patents. She appeared to be tired of the ongoing battle and arguments between the parties.
What is the relevance to Kodak? Samsung and Apple are still locked in bitter, mortal combat. The Apple attorney even described it as thermonuclear war, while the Samsung attorney said that Apple has sullied their name. This battle ain't goin' away. I am sure Kodak's people followed this very closely and will be using the intell they gathered as part of their ongoing strategy.
Background: Apple wants the judge to add even more damages to the $1.049 billion it won in August. Samsung wants to avoid having any of its products taken off the market — and it wants to use Apple's settlement agreement with HTC to make its argument. Samsung is also hoping to get the verdict thrown out altogether, thanks to the behavior of jury foreman Velvin Hogan.
Judge Koh excerpts:
"I wanted to get to some of the other patents but since we're already deep into damages let's keep going with damages."
The jury "did award 40 percent of Samsung's profits even though only utility patents were deemed to have been infringed." Given that no design patents were found to have infringed, Koh seems skeptical that the damages awarded was in line with the law. Koh says Samsung's document seems "rather consistent" with the real world results; 40 percent of Samsung's profits and a 50 percent royalty rate make up the damages per the document.
Koh asks whether Apple's damages expert messed up. "So you're saying Mr. Musika did not give you full credit for units sold" in his own document? Koh: "If they went with what Mr. Musika told them what to do" they wouldn't have come to the number awarded on the Prevail. It seems pretty clear Koh doesn't think the jury did a very thorough job on damages.Koh's worried about the precedent these arguments are setting. Does this lead to the parties saying "we can't figure out what they [the jury] did. We can't figure out any basis for the theory therefore we're just going to uphold the reward?"
Koh: "It looks like the jury has awarded Samsung's profits for virtually all of the products that it could. Maybe in some incidents where it couldn't."
Koh tells the courtroom that she doesn't agree with Samsung's breakdown of what elements are eligible to serve as the base for enhancement. Looks like supplemental damages won't be using that $10 million figure to start.
Koh continues to bring up settling. "I think it would be good for consumers. It would be good for the industry."
Quinn is going through the history of Samsung's deal with Seagate. Koh has her head down, reading the brief no doubt... but she hasn't cut Quinn off yet. Judge Koh finally looks up at Quinn, and she's scowling. She looks back down.
Koh thanks everyone. "I will try to get these orders out as soon as I can."
No decisions for now, but it definitely seemed like Koh has some strong opinions coming into today. Given the extensive briefs both parties have files, that comes as no surprise. The Hogan argument seemed to be a total non-factor. Koh finally started making eye contract with Quinn, but it didn't appear she's warmed to him any more than she had earlier in the trial.
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Post by goarmy on Dec 7, 2012 12:24:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Kott. Somehow I have a feeling that Koh doesn't care for Quinn. And since Quinn is an attorney for Samsung, do you think the ruling to be beneficial to Samsung?
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kott16
Junior Member
Posts: 242
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Post by kott16 on Dec 7, 2012 12:48:35 GMT -5
It is always hard to predict how a judge will rule, but it does seem certain that neither side will get everything it wants. The judge clearly did not buy Quinn's argument about Hogan so damages will stand. The question is how much?
She also does not appear to be leaning for injunctions, at least not on all the products requested by Apple. To do so would be very risky politically as this sows the seeds of a trade war. She may have even had someone from the State Department whisper in her ear.
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Post by goarmy on Dec 7, 2012 12:58:56 GMT -5
It is always hard to predict how a judge will rule, but it does seem certain that neither side will get everything it wants. The judge clearly did not buy Quinn's argument about Hogan so damages will stand. The question is how much? She also does not appear to be leaning for injunctions, at least not on all the products requested by Apple. To do so would be very risky politically as this sows the seeds of a trade war. She may have even had someone from the State Department whisper in her ear. IMO, she seems as though she just might be fed up with this case. Did you happen to watch Brian Williams and Tim Cook on RockCenter last night? Cook blatantly stated that thier products were being infringed upon as soon as they leave the plant.
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 7, 2012 13:00:33 GMT -5
4:41:38 PM PST Verhoeven [Samsung Atty] responds, saying what Apple's doing is an extension of it's thermonuclear war strategy that it's waging across the world.
4:42:31 PM PST Apple is "engaging in a campaign" to harm Samsung's name, he says [Verhoeven]. He cites Apple's "apology" in London as an example of bad faith.
4:42:55 PM PST When it comes to talking settlement, Verhoeven says "We are willing to talk. The ball's in their court."
The above excerpts demonstrates Apple's plan to destroy all of it's competitors especially Samsung by banning all of Samsung's products.
So if Samsung were smart they should just buyout Kodak and all of it's IP for a mere $5-10 billion.
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Post by mikewestveer on Dec 7, 2012 13:02:17 GMT -5
I would have to think the value of 218 has almost doubled since August due to these shenanigans...
That patent could destroy companies that don't have access to it...
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 7, 2012 13:05:18 GMT -5
Kott & Mike: what would your low ball number be for a Samsung buyout?
I truly believe that Samsung is waiting for the UK pension plan to be resolved and they will buyout Kodak in order to settle with Apple and all of it's global litigation.
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Post by updated on Dec 7, 2012 13:07:18 GMT -5
guys, someone was predicting a buyout on the 17th of DEC 2012
it is possible, very possible, might even happen this week:)
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Post by goarmy on Dec 7, 2012 13:09:03 GMT -5
Kott & Mike: what would your low ball number be for a Samsung buyout? I truly believe that Samsung is waiting for the UK pension plan to be resolved and they will buyout Kodak in order to settle with Apple and all of it's global litigation. I agree! And as soon as that happens......to the moon!!
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 7, 2012 13:11:20 GMT -5
Goarmy,
IMO, if you assume that Samsung wants to buyout Kodak for $5 billion, don't you think Apple will counteroffer?
Thus the start of a bidding war after UK pension plan is resolved.
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Post by updated on Dec 7, 2012 13:12:14 GMT -5
Kott & Mike: what would your low ball number be for a Samsung buyout? I truly believe that Samsung is waiting for the UK pension plan to be resolved and they will buyout Kodak in order to settle with Apple and all of it's global litigation. I agree! And as soon as that happens......to the moon!! I doubt the UK pension is what is delaying a buyout -- beside reducing the uk pension is not a sure thing and if it happens, it might be for 200 or 300 millions - this is peanuts for Sumsung and I doubt they would delay a buyout for this amount - but who am I -- I am not a superTrader, not even a Trader lol
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Post by mikewestveer on Dec 7, 2012 13:14:41 GMT -5
Here's my low ball estimate.
I think Kodak will pretty much be even (not green or red,or red and black, pick your poison) after finishing with UK.
I think the buyout/merger route IS the most likely and most profitable for everyone, because Kodak has great synergies and great value hidden away that can never be effectively monetized (IE affect the share price) without a buyout, merger.
If you just take the components, with no goodwill, here's my conservative estimate.
1 Billion- Hot Patents 1 Billion-DI and Kiss Patents 1 Billion-10,000 other patents 1 Billion- DI business 1 Billion- PI business 1 Billion- Commercial Imaging 1 Billion-Kodak's other businesses 500 million- Real Estate
Kodak brand value? Emerging technologies? Ink and film?
I think the discussion could only start at about 7 Billion, and 10 Billion would be a fair price to really get down to brass tacks...I believe it should be higher than this, but this is conservative.
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 7, 2012 13:15:38 GMT -5
Updated,
You have a good point, UK Pensions are just peanuts. So what is preventing Samsung from a buyout now?
IMO, I think they were waiting to get a glimpse into Judge Koh's probable ruling. And from the looks of it, Judge Koh will uphold the damages and possibly ban the initial devices or all of Samsung's devices.
WAG (Wild Ass Guess) Samsung is probably making a buyout offer to Kodak now.
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 7, 2012 13:33:10 GMT -5
IMO, If there is a buyout bidding war, there will be more than two parties (Apple, Samsung, and Google).
We can't forget a relatively new player in the smart devices/tablet world....Microsoft.
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kott16
Junior Member
Posts: 242
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Post by kott16 on Dec 7, 2012 13:34:14 GMT -5
This is a wild game that will be very hard to predict. I would not even want to venture a guess on a possible buyout, patent sale numbers, or division sales.
At this stage Kodak is in the midst of what is known as the fog of war. It occurs when events are occurring rapidly and there is a lack of situational awareness of all of the details. The Apple vs Samsung war is outside of Kodak's immediate sphere, but has a bearing on what will happen to Kodak. It may even be to Kodak's advantage that neither Apple or Samsung emerged with everything they wanted.
Yes, Samsung has to pay money, but how much and are any products banned? If the fines are not too great, and few or no products are banned then each side will continue to search for a tactical advantage against the other. Yesterday's hearing looks like a Mexican standoff so something could give in ways that are impossible to predict right now.
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Post by goarmy on Dec 7, 2012 14:25:53 GMT -5
Goarmy, IMO, if you assume that Samsung wants to buyout Kodak for $5 billion, don't you think Apple will counteroffer? Thus the start of a bidding war after UK pension plan is resolved. That is exactly what I am wishing to happen! TO the MOON!!!
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Post by dmdmd1 on Dec 9, 2012 10:28:08 GMT -5
From the general board topics, a new article cites a bid of $800 million: "Someone can add this to main board if they think it is credible Now, according to two sources, Apple and Google's groups have hammered out their differences and the two consortia have joined together to share costs and put in a combined bid of around $800m. www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/09/...._kodak_patents/" Now that we know that Apple/Google are bidding from the same consortium and their bid was $500-$525 million, some questions arise. 1) Who gave the bid of $800 million? 2) What's the motivation of the bidder? 3) Timing? Why is the bidding increasing now? IMO, the answers are : 1) Samsung 2) To get control of the IP as a negotiating tool against Apple 3) Judge Koh did not rule on the damages and possible banning of Samsung devices, but she did give a little indication that she might uphold the jury damages and possible banning of devices. Thus, the urgency of controlling Kodak's IP is paramount.
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